Hello

[Eddie French]

Well, here I sit, hoping for intelligent conversation.
Perhaps an insult or two.
What happens?
The place has the feel of...of a Usenet room on a Saturday night.
Yes, I may be a sad bastard but I will feel good in the morning.
Sod it, I'm off to the fridge for a Bud.

[Derek Wray]

Post by Eddie French
Well, here I sit, hoping for intelligent conversation.
Perhaps an insult or two.
What happens?
The place has the feel of...of a Usenet room on a Saturday night.
Yes, I may be a sad bastard but I will feel good in the morning.
Sod it, I'm off to the fridge for a Bud.
--
Eddie French
Simply Writing
http://www.simplywriting.co.uk

Please no, no, I beg you.. Not a Bud. Go and get a real beer, not
some piss poor imitation of gnats' urine.

This is all I ask.

[Eddie French]

Post by Derek Wray

Post by Eddie French
Well, here I sit, hoping for intelligent conversation.
Perhaps an insult or two.
What happens?
The place has the feel of...of a Usenet room on a Saturday night.
Yes, I may be a sad bastard but I will feel good in the morning.
Sod it, I'm off to the fridge for a Bud.
--
Eddie French
Simply Writing
http://www.simplywriting.co.uk

Please no, no, I beg you.. Not a Bud. Go and get a real beer, not
some piss poor imitation of gnats' urine.
This is all I ask.

Did I say I'd feel good in the morning?
I just had to go and do it didn't I. That was far too much imitation
gnats' urine. I blame that Born On thingy on the label, can't leave it
in the fridge if it's more than six days old...or was that months?

[JF]

X-No-Archive: yes

Post by Eddie French
Well, here I sit, hoping for intelligent conversation.

The prose samples you provide on your website are formatted using
American paragraphing which was developed by Pitmans for business use.
Novels are formatted using Imperial paragraphing.

Whenever I've picked up an MS from the slush pile that's American
paragraph formatted (it's astonishing how many are -- doesn't anyone
actual open a book to see how it should be done?) it goes back to the
author/authoress with an incorrect formatting convention note.

The worst cases are those MSS in which the writer has submitted what he
or she fondly imagines is camera-ready copy, complete with dropped caps,
justified right margin text, and Times Roman fonts. The snag with such
offerings is that they're usually formatted to about 25 words per line.
The lessons on subsequent line recovery by the human eye were learned
400 years ago.

Please, folks. Submit your MSS using 1-1/2 to 2 line spacing, Courier 12
font, A4 or US equivalent paper, Imperial paragraphing, 25mm approx
margins all around, and use underscoring to indicate italics. Don't give
the reader reasons to toss your MS aside and pick up the next one.

[Eddie French]

JF wrote:
Snip

Post by JF
The prose samples you provide on your website are formatted using
American paragraphing which was developed by Pitmans for business use.
Novels are formatted using Imperial paragraphing.

Snip

Post by JF
Please, folks. Submit your MSS using 1-1/2 to 2 line spacing, Courier 12
font, A4 or US equivalent paper, Imperial paragraphing, 25mm approx
margins all around, and use underscoring to indicate italics. Don't give
the reader reasons to toss your MS aside and pick up the next one.

I do know that JF. However, the work is on a Website. If I submit work
in the traditional manner it goes just as you described.
I do wonder though, if this accepted format will survive as the next
generation grows and fills the positions left by retiring editors and
publication personnel. The little treasures do like their Txtng

[JF]

X-No-Archive: yes

Post by Eddie French

Post by JF
The prose samples you provide on your website are formatted using
American paragraphing which was developed by Pitmans for business use.
Novels are formatted using Imperial paragraphing.

I do know that JF. However, the work is on a Website. If I submit work
in the traditional manner it goes just as you described.
I do wonder though, if this accepted format will survive as the next
generation grows and fills the positions left by retiring editors and
publication personnel. The little treasures do like their Txtng

It ought to survive because Imperial formatting is logical and economic
in terms of paper. A white line between each para and the next is going
to gobble paper. Plus, of course, the white line is a useful tool to
indicate the passage of time or change of locale etc where a chapter
change would not be appropriate.

[Eddie French]

Post by JF

Post by Eddie French

Post by JF
The prose samples you provide on your website are formatted using
American paragraphing which was developed by Pitmans for business
use. Novels are formatted using Imperial paragraphing.

I do wonder though, if this accepted format will survive as the next
generation grows and fills the positions left by retiring editors and
publication personnel. The little treasures do like their Txtng

It ought to survive because Imperial formatting is logical and economic
in terms of paper. A white line between each para and the next is going
to gobble paper. Plus, of course, the white line is a useful tool to
indicate the passage of time or change of locale etc where a chapter
change would not be appropriate.

That much is certainly obvious when paper is the preferred/accepted
medium. It's just that I can't get this vision of medieval monks
espousing then defending calligraphy as the chosen form.

[Jeremiah Harbottle]

In one of your stories you have written "Jamies' side" - surely it should be
"Jamie's side" unless there are two Jamies.

[Jeremiah Harbottle]

Post by JF
Whenever I've picked up an MS from the slush pile that's American
paragraph formatted (it's astonishing how many are -- doesn't anyone
actual open a book to see how it should be done?) it goes back to the
author/authoress with an incorrect formatting convention note.

I am amazed anyone would submit using the American/Business format - how
many books do you read that in this format?

[JF]

X-No-Archive: yes

Post by Jeremiah Harbottle

Post by JF
Whenever I've picked up an MS from the slush pile that's American
paragraph formatted (it's astonishing how many are -- doesn't anyone
actual open a book to see how it should be done?) it goes back to the
author/authoress with an incorrect formatting convention note.

I am amazed anyone would submit using the American/Business format - how
many books do you read that in this format?

About half of them. I'm sorry to say that the specimen chapters on the
website cited below also use American paragraphing. Depressing.

[Eddie French]

Post by JF
X-No-Archive: yes

Post by Jeremiah Harbottle

Post by JF
Whenever I've picked up an MS from the slush pile that's American
paragraph formatted (it's astonishing how many are -- doesn't anyone
actual open a book to see how it should be done?) it goes back to the
author/authoress with an incorrect formatting convention note.

I am amazed anyone would submit using the American/Business format - how
many books do you read that in this format?

About half of them. I'm sorry to say that the specimen chapters on the
website cited below also use American paragraphing. Depressing.

I would reiterate, where does it say that this work has been submitted
in this format, ever?
We live in the world which has in it, for good or for bad, the World
Wide Web.
This work is shown ON the WWW. One of the most useful aspects of the WWW
is the potential for experimentation. People find it difficult to read
from the screen when work is published using traditional formats. We can
experiment with visual layout in an effort to attract readers. We must
experiment. Jeremiah, did you follow this thread from the beginning? I
think not or you would have seen that the content of this post has it's
beginnings somewhat earlier on.
Perhaps you could look again, this time judging content. Come back and
tell me that the content is a load of bollocks, or not bad, or even
good, anything but comments on format - which are quite frankly,
irrelevant when viewed in this medium.

[Eddie French]

Post by Eddie French

Post by JF
X-No-Archive: yes

Post by Jeremiah Harbottle

Post by JF
Whenever I've picked up an MS from the slush pile that's American
paragraph formatted (it's astonishing how many are -- doesn't anyone
actual open a book to see how it should be done?) it goes back to the
author/authoress with an incorrect formatting convention note.

I am amazed anyone would submit using the American/Business format - how
many books do you read that in this format?

About half of them. I'm sorry to say that the specimen chapters on the
website cited below also use American paragraphing. Depressing.

I would reiterate, where does it say that this work has been submitted
in this format, ever?
We live in the world which has in it, for good or for bad, the World
Wide Web.
This work is shown ON the WWW. One of the most useful aspects of the WWW
is the potential for experimentation. People find it difficult to read
from the screen when work is published using traditional formats. We can
experiment with visual layout in an effort to attract readers. We must
experiment. Jeremiah, did you follow this thread from the beginning? I
think not or you would have seen that the content of this post has it's
beginnings somewhat earlier on.
Perhaps you could look again, this time judging content. Come back and
tell me that the content is a load of bollocks, or not bad, or even
good, anything but comments on format - which are quite frankly,
irrelevant when viewed in this medium.

Yes, I know Jeremiah. [it's] It's a typo, not ignorance. (It happens to
be one of my pet hates. More surprisingly due the fact that I do it
myself now and again prior to edits)

[JF]

X-No-Archive: yes

Post by Eddie French

Post by Eddie French
This work is shown ON the WWW. One of the most useful aspects of the
WWW is the potential for experimentation. People find it difficult to
read from the screen when work is published using traditional
formats. We can experiment with visual layout in an effort to attract
readers. We must experiment. Jeremiah, did you follow this thread
from the beginning? I think not or you would have seen that the
content of this post has it's beginnings somewhat earlier on.

Yes, I know Jeremiah. [it's] It's a typo, not ignorance. (It happens to
be one of my pet hates. More surprisingly due the fact that I do it
myself now and again prior to edits)

You need to organise your thoughts a little more before you post. In
the above you have quoted the wrong text for the content of your
subsequent comment.

I've looked briefly at your website. Do you know about subsequent line
recovery? 12 to 15 words per line is a reasonable rule for making it
relatively easy for the eye to recover the beginning of the line and
drop to the following line. Some of the lines in your "Sacrifice" run
into 27 or more words. When the first newspapers appeared they were
printed with the lines of body text extending right across the
broadsheet. They were virtually impossible to read which is why
newspaper columns were invented.

[JF]

X-No-Archive: yes

Post by Eddie French

Post by JF
X-No-Archive: yes

Post by Jeremiah Harbottle

Post by JF
Whenever I've picked up an MS from the slush pile that's American
paragraph formatted (it's astonishing how many are -- doesn't anyone
actual open a book to see how it should be done?) it goes back to the
author/authoress with an incorrect formatting convention note.

I am amazed anyone would submit using the American/Business format - how
many books do you read that in this format?

About half of them. I'm sorry to say that the specimen chapters on
the website cited below also use American paragraphing. Depressing.

I would reiterate, where does it say that this work has been submitted
in this format, ever?

In billions of novels on billions of bookshelves.

Post by Eddie French
We live in the world which has in it, for good or for bad, the World
Wide Web.
This work is shown ON the WWW. One of the most useful aspects of the
WWW is the potential for experimentation. People find it difficult to
read from the screen when work is published using traditional formats.

Those traditional formats are the result of 400 years of hard-learned
lessons in typography. It would be a foolish writer who decides to
ignore such evolution. Shove a white line between each paragraph and the
next in novels and you'll double the amount of paper used.

Post by Eddie French
We can experiment with visual layout in an effort to attract readers.
We must experiment. Jeremiah, did you follow this thread from the
beginning? I think not or you would have seen that the content of this
post has it's beginnings somewhat earlier on.

Your own formatting used for your posts is a ghastly abortion -- a
mixture of American and Imperial formatting. A post has one writer but
many readers therefore it is sensible to consider the majority.

Post by Eddie French
Perhaps you could look again, this time judging content. Come back and
tell me that the content is a load of bollocks, or not bad, or even
good, anything but comments on format - which are quite frankly,
irrelevant when viewed in this medium.

Presentation is one hundred per cent relevant. If a writer is too lazy,
too stupid, too arrogant, or simply can't be bothered to present their
stuff properly, then I can't be bothered to read it.

[Eddie French]

Post by JF
Presentation is one hundred per cent relevant. If a writer is too lazy,
too stupid, too arrogant, or simply can't be bothered to present their
stuff properly, then I can't be bothered to read it.

This reminds me of my third year form master.
So different from your initial reply to my first post here.
Are you so closed to any change that the mere thought of it results in
venom spitting crassness.
Shame on you JF.

[JF]

X-No-Archive: yes

Post by Eddie French

Post by JF
Presentation is one hundred per cent relevant. If a writer is too
lazy, too stupid, too arrogant, or simply can't be bothered to
present their stuff properly, then I can't be bothered to read it.

This reminds me of my third year form master.
So different from your initial reply to my first post here.
Are you so closed to any change that the mere thought of it results in
venom spitting crassness.
Shame on you JF.

That you think a robustly expressed opinion should amount to
venom-spitting (note hyphenation) crassness (which was not directed at
you personally if you read what I wrote with care) suggests that that
accusation should be directed elsewhere. I'm far from adverse to
improvement but not ill-considered change for the sake of change. The
incredibly simple and effective conventions of the typography of the
novel have evolved over the centuries to balance ease of reading with
cost. If writers can't be bothered to learn their craft, I certainly
can't be bothered to read their work.

One of the most useful conventions is the white line to indicate a
passage of time or a change of locale where a chapter break would not be
appropriate. I make good use of the white line break and so do many
other authors. For reasons you've not gone into, other than whibble
about change, you seem to want to abolish it.

If you want to have your work published for money, then don't give
publishers' readers reasons for rejection.

[Eddie French]

Post by JF
X-No-Archive: yes

Post by Eddie French

Post by JF
Presentation is one hundred per cent relevant. If a writer is too
lazy, too stupid, too arrogant, or simply can't be bothered to
present their stuff properly, then I can't be bothered to read it.

This reminds me of my third year form master.
So different from your initial reply to my first post here.
Are you so closed to any change that the mere thought of it results in
venom spitting crassness.
Shame on you JF.

That you think a robustly expressed opinion should amount to
venom-spitting (note hyphenation) crassness (which was not directed at
you personally if you read what I wrote with care) suggests that that
accusation should be directed elsewhere. I'm far from adverse to
improvement but not ill-considered change for the sake of change. The
incredibly simple and effective conventions of the typography of the
novel have evolved over the centuries to balance ease of reading with
cost. If writers can't be bothered to learn their craft, I certainly
can't be bothered to read their work.
One of the most useful conventions is the white line to indicate a
passage of time or a change of locale where a chapter break would not be
appropriate. I make good use of the white line break and so do many
other authors. For reasons you've not gone into, other than whibble
about change, you seem to want to abolish it.
If you want to have your work published for money, then don't give
publishers' readers reasons for rejection.

I never said that I would abolish anything. I merely stated that I
thought that this may change as the younger generation grow to fill
vacant positions left open by retiring editors and publishing personell.
I base this projection entirely on the general changes taking place in
communication since the advent of mobile phone texting and the
proliferation of the WWW and chat applications.

In my Jack Dooley episodes the white spaces represent the passage of
time or a change in locale. Did you not get that? Did you read them?
If you did and you are trying to pass on to me some benefit of your
experience then sentiments such as "If a writer is too lazy, too
stupid, too arrogant" represent a strange way of doing so.

[Derek Wray]

Post by JF
X-No-Archive: yes

Post by Eddie French

Post by JF
X-No-Archive: yes

Post by Jeremiah Harbottle

Post by JF
Whenever I've picked up an MS from the slush pile that's
American
paragraph formatted (it's astonishing how many are -- doesn't anyone
actual open a book to see how it should be done?) it goes back to the
author/authoress with an incorrect formatting convention note.

I am amazed anyone would submit using the American/Business
format - how
many books do you read that in this format?

About half of them. I'm sorry to say that the specimen chapters
on the website cited below also use American paragraphing.
Depressing.

I would reiterate, where does it say that this work has been
submitted in this format, ever?

In billions of novels on billions of bookshelves.

Post by Eddie French
We live in the world which has in it, for good or for bad, the
World Wide Web.
This work is shown ON the WWW. One of the most useful aspects of
the WWW is the potential for experimentation. People find it
difficult to read from the screen when work is published using
traditional formats.

Those traditional formats are the result of 400 years of
hard-learned lessons in typography. It would be a foolish writer
who decides to ignore such evolution. Shove a white line between
each paragraph and the next in novels and you'll double the amount
of paper used.

Post by Eddie French
We can experiment with visual layout in an effort to attract
readers. We must experiment. Jeremiah, did you follow this thread
from the beginning? I think not or you would have seen that the
content of this post has it's beginnings somewhat earlier on.

Your own formatting used for your posts is a ghastly abortion -- a
mixture of American and Imperial formatting. A post has one writer
but many readers therefore it is sensible to consider the majority.

Post by Eddie French
Perhaps you could look again, this time judging content. Come back
and tell me that the content is a load of bollocks, or not bad, or
even good, anything but comments on format - which are quite
frankly, irrelevant when viewed in this medium.

Presentation is one hundred per cent relevant. If a writer is too
lazy, too stupid, too arrogant, or simply can't be bothered to
present their stuff properly, then I can't be bothered to read it.
--
James Follett. Novelist. (G1LXP)
http://www.jamesfollett.dswilliams.co.uk
"Return of the Eagles", the last book in James Follett's 'Eagles' trilogy
published by Severn House, London & New York, Dec 2004.

Shurely shome mishtake here. Like wrong thread.

How does this fit into your 'If a writer is too lazy, too stupid,
too arrogant, or simply can't be bothered to present their stuff
properly, then I can't be bothered to read it' argument?

[Eddie French]

Post by JF

Post by Eddie French
I would reiterate, where does it say that this work has been submitted
in this format, ever?

In billions of novels on billions of bookshelves.

I said that?

Post by JF
Those traditional formats are the result of 400 years of hard-learned
lessons in typography. It would be a foolish writer who decides to
ignore such evolution. Shove a white line between each paragraph and the
next in novels and you'll double the amount of paper used.

I haven't used any paper yet.

[JF]

X-No-Archive: yes

Post by Eddie French

Post by JF

Post by Eddie French
I would reiterate, where does it say that this work has been
submitted in this format, ever?

In billions of novels on billions of bookshelves.

I said that?

Post by JF
Those traditional formats are the result of 400 years of
hard-learned lessons in typography. It would be a foolish writer who
decides to ignore such evolution. Shove a white line between each
paragraph and the next in novels and you'll double the amount of
paper used.

I haven't used any paper yet.

This reminds me the dilemma facing an editor who wished to advertise in
the Bookseller for an assistant editor. What deterred her was the
thought of the sheer numbers of applications she would receive and the
work involved in going through them and replying. My bean counter
friendly suggestion was simple: that she advertise giving an e-mail
address only for replies. A requirement was that the applicant would
have to be proficient at handling emails -- bouncing text and queries
back and forth between office and authors.

As expected, she received a tsumani of applications. They were telling
emails replies indeed. Most of the applicants couldn't present neat work
so they were sent a boiler plate response thanking them for their
interest etc. A large number didn't answer her emailed questionnaire
properly. She whittled the applicants down to about five.

The cost saving in the selection process was considerable. All achieved
without the use of paper

[Jeremiah Harbottle]

"> Perhaps you could look again, this time judging content. Come back and

tell me that the content is a load of bollocks, or not bad, or even good,
anything but comments on format - which are quite frankly, irrelevant when
viewed in this medium.

Hang on, don't have a go at me - I was just amazed that people submit to
publishers in this format,
and I know that HTML makes it virtually impossible to format in any other
style. How you format
your website is no concern of mine.

I started reading the Jack Dooley stuff, but found the use of "dialect"
quite annoying, to be honest.
I also found some grammatical errors ("Witches" instead of "Witch's" and
Jollys instead of Jolly's and so on) and can't understand why
two exclamation marks are required. Is there such a thing as a double
exclamation?

As for content... I don't know. I found it strangely uninvolving, and the
long passages of dialogue
seemed rather uninteresting. I wasn't sure what tense it was supposed to
be - seemed to be sort
of experimental... With dialogue not really belonging to the description...
And after reading a number of lines
of dialogue I lost track of who was saying what... There was no emotion in
any of the dialogue, and never
any description of character actions.

Not my cup of tea, to be honest.

[Eddie French]

Post by Jeremiah Harbottle
"> Perhaps you could look again, this time judging content. Come back and

tell me that the content is a load of bollocks, or not bad, or even good,
anything but comments on format - which are quite frankly, irrelevant when
viewed in this medium.

Hang on, don't have a go at me - I was just amazed that people submit to
publishers in this format,
and I know that HTML makes it virtually impossible to format in any other
style. How you format
your website is no concern of mine.
I started reading the Jack Dooley stuff, but found the use of "dialect"
quite annoying, to be honest.
I also found some grammatical errors ("Witches" instead of "Witch's" and
Jollys instead of Jolly's and so on) and can't understand why
two exclamation marks are required. Is there such a thing as a double
exclamation?
As for content... I don't know. I found it strangely uninvolving, and the
long passages of dialogue
seemed rather uninteresting. I wasn't sure what tense it was supposed to
be - seemed to be sort
of experimental... With dialogue not really belonging to the description...
And after reading a number of lines
of dialogue I lost track of who was saying what... There was no emotion in
any of the dialogue, and never
any description of character actions.
Not my cup of tea, to be honest.

Thanks Jeremiah.
All input is valuable.

[Jeremiah Harbottle]

Post by Eddie French
Thanks Jeremiah.
All input is valuable.

Oh yes. I got a rejection once from a publisher that said "Not suitable for
our lists, but it was not bad. Your style is full of life. Have you tried
writing comics?"

I'm not sure if that was a compliment (That they had rejected and taken time
out to write a personal - handwritten note) or an insult!

[Eddie French]

Post by Jeremiah Harbottle

Post by Eddie French
Thanks Jeremiah.
All input is valuable.

Oh yes. I got a rejection once from a publisher that said "Not suitable for
our lists, but it was not bad. Your style is full of life. Have you tried
writing comics?"
I'm not sure if that was a compliment (That they had rejected and taken time
out to write a personal - handwritten note) or an insult!

You mentioned that the work could be experimental. Not entirely true
except in the method of delivery. The Jack Dooley episodes are an
attempt to drive the action on through dialogue only. I write them as I
think I would hear them being performed on a radio show, hence the white
spaces a' la JF. (To represent the passage of time/new location.)
I had a similar rejection from Interzone once. A hand written letter
accompanied by a standard form which proclaimed the magazines apology
for resorting to generic rejection letters due to the number of
submissions received. I took it as a compliment...I think.

[Jeremiah Harbottle]

Post by Eddie French
You mentioned that the work could be experimental. Not entirely true
except in the method of delivery. The Jack Dooley episodes are an attempt
to drive the action on through dialogue only. I write them as I think I
would hear them being performed on a radio show, hence the white spaces a'
la JF. (To represent the passage of time/new location.)

If this is the case, then I'd write them as a radio play - I didn't think it
worked very well at all as prose. I agree with JF over the formatting. I
found it rather difficult to read. I was confused by the chunks of dialogue,
white space - was it a change in locale or not? - and then prose.

Interzone - I gave up on then when I started getting rejections saying
"yeah, it's a great, powerful idea and story. But not suitable." They
obviously had an idea of what they wanted, and I didn't.